Talk:Blaze Release
QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT Debut? So if it's part of Enton that he can put out the flames, wouldn't the debut be the chapter he actually put them out? Seelentau 愛議 21:26, February 2, 2014 (UTC) :I've seen people argue about Itachi having extinguished the flames as well, I don't recall.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, February 2, 2014 (UTC) ::What chapter? Seelentau 愛議 22:09, February 2, 2014 (UTC) :::Chapter 390 page 6--Elveonora (talk) 22:25, February 2, 2014 (UTC) ::::He stopped casting it, yes. He did not put it out, though. Seelentau 愛議 22:34, February 2, 2014 (UTC) :::::He didn't want to kill Sasuke and was pretending he wanted his eyes. So you mean to tell me the flame ceased to burn by itself?--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, February 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Yes. It burns everything it needs to, and if that's done, it stops, hm? Seelentau 愛議 12:56, February 3, 2014 (UTC) So what you imply is that the technique's flame burns and is hot only while the user focuses his sight on a target? That kinda contradicts it burning the forests and if that were true, Sasuke would have had to just close his eyes in order to save Karin. Not to mention it would leave Zetsu's statement irrelevant if Itachi didn't do anything--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :Yes... in that case, putting out the flames isn't part of Enton. Seelentau 愛議 11:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC) That's what I'm getting at, Amaterasu article even states Itachi could put out the flames, yet this article accredits it to blaze release thing--Elveonora (talk) 12:10, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :Unless things were changed, eons ago, the ability to put out the flames was not one attributed to Blaze Release, but a power of mastery of Amaterasu. The ability to manipulate the flames (read: Have it move in one direction, then suddenly turn to another, make stuff out of it, ect) was attributed to Blaze Release. Before Sasuke started doing stuff to it, Amaterasu could be cast but then it just kind of did it's own thing. Sasuke then decided to use Plot no Jutsu and made it do other stuff besides burn everything to the ground. :What did that little history lesson mean? It means that Itachi putting out the fire was not Blaze Release, just him exerting his mastery. Sasuke deciding to make spikes was using Blaze Release and that was the debut.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:38, February 4, 2014 (UTC) ::The thing is, the article claims: "This nature also allows the user to extinguish these flames" ._. --Elveonora (talk) 17:49, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :::/shrug Guess it shouldn't?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:00, February 4, 2014 (UTC) While I agree that the ability to extinguish the flames should not be in this article, it wasn't explicitly pointed out that Itachi did the same to Sasuke's Orochimaru-style Replacement Technique. I believe Zetsu stated that Itachi stopped using Amaterasu, and was proceeding to go for Sasuke's eyes, not that he was stopping the flames for the sake of protecting those eyes. Due to the abilities Sasuke inherited from Orochimaru, the Replacement Technique could have been partitioned in such a manner that the flames would not consume the upper torso that Sasuke used as bait. And as Itachi had no real intention of taking Sasuke's life, or eyes, it's extremely doubtful that he would have willingly nailed Sasuke with Amaterasu unless he was aware of that Replacement Technique. I'm of the opinion that Kagutsuchi is the only definite example of exerting that degree of control over Amaterasu's flames, and is the ocular power—the "new power"—that Sasuke discovered in Chapter 415. Many surmised that Itachi did so not only due to the circumstances of the Replacement Technique, but the translations that were made available to us at the time also insinuated as much. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 01:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC) Jutsu? Really? I'm sorry, but isn't it more speculative to call Blaze Release just a jutsu instead of chakra nature? Yes, there's stuff with it that doesn't add up either way, but considering all the information baggage we have on how stuff is named in Naruto, calling it a chakra nature requires fewer assumptions and logic tinkering than calling it a jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - 00:26, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :Wait, when did it stop being a nature?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:32, February 3, 2014 (UTC) ::I was under the impression that it was discussed, eons ago, that if something ended up with "X Release" and led to techniques with "X Release: Y" it was a nature until Kishimoto decided to say otherwise. When the hell did that change?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:35, February 3, 2014 (UTC) While I understand why some of you might be against my latest edits to this article, I think they were valid. This article is - as it is now - full of speculation about Enton and even while I agree with all of it, it's against how a Wiki should work if we leave those speculations in the article. Enton was never called an advanced nature. Its ending is the only thing that suggests that it's an advanced chakra nature. Everything else speaks against it being a nature: There is no new nature created, it's cast through the eyes and there's only one nature involved (as far as we know). It's against what Kakashi described as a nature based Kekkei Genkai. Also, if we apply the "X ton = nature" principle to everything, then wouldn't this be a nature, too? Seelentau 愛議 08:51, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :I think there are more examples of nature-like techniques like Toad Oil Bullet--Elveonora (talk) 12:58, February 3, 2014 (UTC) But on actual topic, sorry to disappoint you Seel, but: * it's an application of Amaterasu * Amaterasu is Fire Release * therefore still a nature, advanced or not * meaning it should still be classified as Fire Release in the least--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :Yes, Enton is used through Fire Release, but it was never stated that it's a new nature. Amaterasu isn't a new nature and Enton is Amaterasu + Keitaihenka. By the manga's explanation, Enton is no new nature (or a new Kekkei Genkai, for that matter). Seelentau 愛議 13:52, February 3, 2014 (UTC) ::True, we shouldn't suggest it's an advanced nature in case it hasn't been stated which I don't recall if it was. But I think you removed too much stuff, like the Tobirama statement for example which in fact lays evidence onto your proposition that it indeed may not be an advanced nature considering an instance of past possible user/s. For example, the time-altering aspect of Tsukuyomi isn't mandatory, it can be used without it, so who is to say that every Amaterasu user can't learn "blaze release" which may simply be an optional trick to it?--Elveonora (talk) 14:06, February 3, 2014 (UTC) ::I removed that, because he didn't say Enton, but Kagutsuchi. I guess that's just nitpicking, though. And I never said that no one else could possibly use Enton. Seelentau 愛議 14:42, February 3, 2014 (UTC) Also unless I'm missing something, another thing worthy of note is how come is this a doujutsu since we saw Sasuke use it with his hands? 0_o Kinda not following Kishi's logic--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :Aamaterasu is a Dōjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 15:20, February 3, 2014 (UTC) ::But so is Blaze Release, isn't it? What about C's comment? But he can do it with hands too so that's confusing to me--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :::We don't know what exactly Blaze Release is, but it's a Dōjutsu because of Amaterasu. Sasuke can't do it with his hands, he just focuses it on his hands. Seelentau 愛議 17:09, February 3, 2014 (UTC) :::Think of it the same way Obito can use Kamui to nigh-instantly transport his victims to the other dimensional space by making physical contact with them. Using Kagutsuchi in conjunction with Amaterasu allows the flames to be conjured up and wielded in that manner. At least, that's how I see it. :::By the way: Still wishing you guys would just identify it as the way Sasuke dubs Amaterasu's flames. What other examples do we have of a Nature Release being distinguished by the manner in which Shape Transformation is applied? Nature Release has always been synonymous with Nature Transformation... Blargh. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 17:24, February 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::Blaze Release being a dojutsu was never in question, it manipulates Amaterasu, so that was a given. The issue was it wasn't a chakra nature. Which the name "Blaze Release", its application "Blaze Release: WhateverDaFudgeIWantBecauseI'mSasukeUchiha". The fact that we don't know what makes it doesn't change it fits with the other things we do know about Nature transformations.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 23:37, February 3, 2014 (UTC) I'm sorry, but when you say "advanced chakra nature", do you mean kekkei genkei? Iowndisciti (talk) 00:07, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :Technically, yes. As one cannot have an advanced chakra nature without a kekkei genkai.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 02:41, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :::Yes, Blaze Release is a dojutsu. The fact that we don't know what it is means that we don't add something like "is an advanced chakra nature". Simple as that. So how was my edit wrong? I removed everything that wasn't stated in the manga and left a trivia about the "release" and how it's unclear if it's a chakra nature. Seelentau 愛議 09:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC) ::::This is going to become a circle argument and one we've had plenty of times before. Anyone want to guess my next line? I'm certain you've all seen it by now.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :::::Well, you could try to counter my arguments for a change? I countered your "release = nature" argument with "Tonton Jutsu isn't a nature, either" and even added a trivia about that suffix. What else don't you agree with? Seelentau 愛議 13:03, February 4, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Oh I most certainly can. And I have. Plenty of times before this one. But that merely delays the inevitable. Before I continue any further I'm hoping someone takes note of how this will most in all probability end up going.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:13, February 4, 2014 (UTC) Yes, you will go on like "I am an admin and have power over you" and "since I disagree with you the discussion ends here and now." Right?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 13:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :Close, but no. Think the last time this happened was a bit before your time. Ten Points to Ravenclaw for effort however.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:25, February 4, 2014 (UTC) ::Thanks, Hufflepuff-senior. Mind to enlighten us mortals with your divine judgment?Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 13:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC) :::Slytherin actually. (Green and Silver for Life!) but considering how you asked so very nicely. ::::1) Seelentau brought up a counter to my first statement "release = nature" with "Tonton". ::::2) I would have then countered with Tonton being a character's name. I would have also countered with past evidence in series have shown that when a technique went from "X Release: Y (Technique)", the first part was the nature. ::::3) Seelentau could then counter with we have no proof it is a nature though, and to that he is not wrong. ::::4) I would have countered, while we don't have proof that it is a nature, we also do not have proof that it is not one. I would have then used my previous statement again to point out that it follows the same written format as every other nature, and considering how it is not Fire, Wind, Earth, or Water, the logical conclusion is that it would be an advanced nature. ::::5) Which rightfully should be countered with "We don't know that, so we shouldn't make assumptions." ::::6) To which I would respond "That's the problem we keep having and why this crap happens every other month, we have enough information to make a conclusion on our own we just don't and sit with our thumbs up our asses." ::::7) Then from here on out, it will be me vs anyone whom I've ever offended, leaving the conversation at hand to be ignored or resolved with no "end" to the overarching issue that leads to this thing in the first place. :::That is basically how this conversation will continue. As it happened the last dozen times we had it. ::::Also, 50 points from Ravenclaw for making fun of Hufflepuff. Don't hate because they go hard.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:44, February 4, 2014 (UTC) ::::::This is relevant. People go here.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 16:20, February 4, 2014 (UTC) Just cut it out, all you guys are doing at this point is arguing. Grow up! It's not needed here, if you wanna argue do it on your own time don't waist space on this wikia for it. Munchvtec 16:35, February 4, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec :And I'm certain you have a full grasp at the actual scope of this "arguments". -_- If you did, you would know it is very needed which is why I seriously want people to go here.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 16:37, February 4, 2014 (UTC) In my dearest opinion, I think this shouldn't be counted as a Kekkei Genkai. Though as I stated, it's just a opinion. Now....Fall Under my Ultimate Genjutsu (talk) 20:56, February 15, 2014 (UTC) How does this even work? How can Sasuke cast flames on the whole ribcage of Susanoo when he can't even see the whole thing? How can he cast it in Susanoo's hand as a black orb while he's blindfolded? And does he really always cast Amaterasu first and only then uses form manipulation? Seelentau 愛議 23:56, March 21, 2014 (UTC) :How does Madara cast a eye technique without eyes? Seriously the laws of physics in the Naruto universe bend to the will of the Uchiha.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:11, March 22, 2014 (UTC)